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We only intervene in moderator problems under extraordinary circumstances and only because we haven't yet implemented self-service features. Basically the cure for any bad moderator is to start a new tribe.
We will not make any commitment that obligates us to moderate the content on tribe. We have a couple of strategies for monetizing content, but overall that is a secondary consideration relative to the benefit of supporting free speech. We only intervene as obligated by law except to act quickly to mitigate the consequences of unauthorized posting of personally identifying information. The basis for expeditious action is to minimize the damage done.
There are multiple forums for discussion of these policies, though Tribe Brainstorms is probably the most "official." What we gain from these forums is more use cases that become abstracted into rule sets and operating procedures rather than specific direction. Although most issues fall into a few broad categories, there's always something new to learn.
See also:
FAQ: I am a moderator and I need help! Who do I contact?
faq.tribe.net/thread/1d7c...6af278be8715
We will not make any commitment that obligates us to moderate the content on tribe. We have a couple of strategies for monetizing content, but overall that is a secondary consideration relative to the benefit of supporting free speech. We only intervene as obligated by law except to act quickly to mitigate the consequences of unauthorized posting of personally identifying information. The basis for expeditious action is to minimize the damage done.
There are multiple forums for discussion of these policies, though Tribe Brainstorms is probably the most "official." What we gain from these forums is more use cases that become abstracted into rule sets and operating procedures rather than specific direction. Although most issues fall into a few broad categories, there's always something new to learn.
See also:
FAQ: I am a moderator and I need help! Who do I contact?
faq.tribe.net/thread/1d7c...6af278be8715
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 5:53 AMI do undrstand you rpoint of view. It didn't work in my favor.
I amusing tribe lass and less.
It is less busy. My yoga tribes are not used.
The drama in another tribe will never end.
I took MODship of 4 little tribes and proposed topics.. I was writing to muyself.
The pain of change.. is honest.
I am glad you are hodling courage to have long range plans.
I have held and nourished a candle which providies me nothing in my life these days.
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 6:54 AMThe above policy may conflict with the officially posted Code of Conduct for tribe.net. Specifically, there is no mention of enforcement of the CoC by forum moderators in the Moderator Support Policy, nor is there any indication that the current tribe.net administrators will enforce policies that they are officially representing in the CoC with regard to the speech and actions of forum moderators. Note that the CoC specifically mentions contractual obligations between tribe.net and its users...which presumably include moderators, both as users and in some other legal capacity as "enforcers" of tribe's content policies.
The current officially posted CoC begins as follows:
"updated December 20, 2005
The TribeTM service ("Service") offers a place to meet friends on-line, build relationships, share discussion, and view member content. By using the Service (whether or not you choose to become a member) you agree to accept this Code of Conduct as part of the Service Agreement as a contract between you and Tribe. You may review the Service Agreement at any time at www.tribe.net/pub,Terms.vm.
You also agree that we may modify Code of Conduct terms from time to time at our sole discretion by posting an updated Code of Conduct. You may review the Code of Conduct at any time at www.tribe.net/pub,Code.vm. If you do not agree with these terms as posted, you are prohibited from using the Service.
1. Conduct and Content
While using or accessing the Service--directly or indirectly--you agree to take a constructive tone and practice good etiquette and courtesy and you agree NOT to:
a. threaten, disrupt, inflame, intimidate, libel, stalk, defame, or defraud any individual, entity, or group on any basis including but not limited to age, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, race, religion or disability or encourage any one else to do so"
[the rest is at the following link]
tribe.net/template/pub%2CCode.vm
This has not been updated since end of 2005 and is still part of the official user agreement as far as I and many other users and moderators may know. Read section 1.a. of that Code of Conduct to see my point; the conflict is specifically to the free speech statements of the Moderator Support Policy and involves a legal obligation on the part of the owners and operators of tribe.net.
Are you enforcing section 1a or not? As a moderator I try to enforce substantially CoC sec.1a 2005...but is it still operative on this website in general? Does a moderator of a forum have to follow the publicly posted CoC from 2005? The moderator policy mentions free speech but does not mention whether or not the CoC is supposed to govern moderators and speech conducted in forums. In 2006 it supposedly was enforced. Is the CoC being enforced now when it comes to the postings and behavior of forum moderators? Is their speech limited by sec 1.1 2005 of the CoC or not.
[Also note that section 1o specifically mentions trolling and defines it. Is that section operative too, both for general users and moderators?]
If guys are no longer enforcing the CoC for moderators of public forums, then you need to modify or pull the CoC so that it conforms to how you are currently running tribe.net.
I also note that the code of conduct does not appear to be viewable from all links on the site. For some reason some are coded as tribe.net/template/pub%2CCode.vm and others are coded as www.tribe.net/pub,Code.vm
The former link resolves to the CoC, the later link (and the one embedded in the actual CoC section itself, resolves to a standard members home page...can't really say what it resolves to on an administrative or starred or when unlogged in. I'm seeing the problem of Firefox 3.5.2 on Mac OS X 10.4.11, Javascript on, Java off. -
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 7:22 AM1.a. is not enforced. I have endured countless attacks from Marley and Gehenna. They still exist and 'play' on tribe.
I just left CR to avoid and seriously to use my tiem better.
By allowing flaming, namecalling, deleterious conduct on a regular basis.. youhave discouraged readers and thus traffic.
There are other networks: FB, twitter, Yelp, yoga journal, news services.. -
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 1:15 PMtribehelp, will we see the Moderator Support Policy or the Code of Conduct page changed at some point so that they refer to each other directly in some way? Again, the wording of the above officially suggested Moderator Support Policy (MSP) can easily be read as in direct contradiction with tribe.net's officially posted CoC where the term "free speech" and talk of only doing things to meet legal enforcement seems to run directly in contradiction to many subsections of sec.1 CoC 2005. Many sections of the CoC are about what free speech will be limited on tribe.net...
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 2:46 PMThere is no conflict: the CoC is what users of the service agree to, not a statement of management policy.
The TOU specifically states:
15. NO WARRANTY
We provide the Service "as-is," with all faults and as available. We give no express warranties, guarantees, or conditions. To the extent permitted by law, we disclaim any implied warranties including those of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose, workmanlike effort, and non-infringement and including those arising by usage of trade, course of dealing, or course of performance. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, we do not warrant that the service or the content will be accurate, error-free, virus-free, or uninterrupted or that it will meet your requirements. You may have additional consumer rights under your local laws that this Service Agreement cannot change.
In other words, we reserve the right to enforce the TOU and CoC, but they do not oblige us to do so at anyone's request. When evaluating where and when to take action, we strive to act fairly and within the limits of what we are legally bound to do. We are not in the business of punishing people nor do we intend to police the site with a list of rules in hand. Part of this is necessitated by lack of resources, but it has never been our (NSA's) intention to aggressively hunt down and remove participants from the site.
What the CoC and TOU provide you with is a list of behaviors that could be considered a violation and subject your use of the service to suspension, but they do not necessarily guarantee it.
Again, if you are looking for a place with more stringent application of rules and terms, there are many other sites providing that level of comfort. Our position is that this is an Adult site, and members should understand that when they participate here.
Thanks for catching those links, I've got them fixed and will roll it out in the next build. -
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 6:27 PM" Again, if you are looking for a place with more stringent application of rules and terms, there are many other sites providing that level of comfort. Our position is that this is an Adult site, and members should understand that when they participate here. "
Thank you. These good words are about to convince me to go gold star.
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OT: link bug
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 7:30 PM>Thanks for catching those links, I've got them fixed and will roll it out in the next build.
Figured you'd be interested in that bug.
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 7:45 PM>What the CoC and TOU provide you with is a list of behaviors that could be considered a violation and subject your use of the service to suspension, but they do not necessarily guarantee it.
Actually, the way CoC 2005 is worded the inappropriate conduct listed there, if engaged in, IS in violation of the terms of service agreement. The fact that you might or might not enforce it and by tribe.net stating that explicitly means the moderators then assume that they too can ignore the CoC and TOU agreement until you decide to step in. While that may be a practical way to approach things, it has led to a lot of crap. Is it or is it not the responsibility of a moderator to ensure that the TOU and CoC is adhered to in their forums BEFORE you feel the need to step in...or we just free to do and say whatever we, as moderators, want until enough folks leave the site or drop a blizzard of PMs on to you guys?
Again, what I want to see is a return to some hard and fast rules that will get someone booted off of tribe.net so that disruption is minimized. Things like reposting someone else's private messages and other content is not cool. It's covered by the CoC too in all likelihood...but is a moderator obligated or not to prevent it from happening and continuing to happen in a forum they moderate? If they are then there is a clear cut case for removal in any instance it occurs. However, if something like that is selectively enforced, there is going to be continuing bad feeling and folks leaving/staying away from this network. That's what I'm getting at. There has to somethings that moderators agree to abiding by stringently when they moderate a publicly forum...or generate any content and facilitate generation of content publicly. There are certain things you guys are supposed to abide by legally at all times too. What are the things besides pirating commercial software and using a tribe to foment violent confrontations in real life that moderators must do so that your work in policing is minimized? That's what I'm getting at. Vague ain't cutting it and it makes your job actually harder, not easier. Not that being explicit is pleasant either...but at least it reduces the gray area that the nutters and the trollers seem to constantly play in...especially when they themselves rig an election to gain control of a forum, etc. -
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Wed, August 5, 2009 - 5:05 AMYes, it is the moderators' job to run their tribes in accordance with site policy, just as members should participate on Tribe in accordance with site policy. Moderators can use their own additional rules to run their tribes as well.
We only feel the need to step in when user complaints make it clear that a moderator has become problematic, and that starting a new tribe for some compelling reason is not an option. So far, we have only had to do this a few times. In all cases the moderator was not an otherwise "bad" tribe member, mostly it seems that some people's sense of humor just isn't taken well by others in the moderator dynamic.
The legal requirements we are subject to mainly concern users' privacy rights and complying with court orders (namely, subpoenas). Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act exempts service providers from liability for most user-posted content. Areas where we will absolutely step in are persistent spammers, child pornography, copyright violation (DMCA takedown requests) and exposing personally identifying information (reposting private messages would fall under this).
When it comes to booting people off Tribe, we find they become even more disruptive when threatened with disciplinary action. Even spammers return in full force, but they are relatively easy to identify. Probably every person you'd like to see booted off now, has been at some point and has returned, probably multiple times. There's a certain glory in that overgrown bully mindset to being kicked off a website, and responding to it in any way merely encourages the behavior. Our advice is and always has been: Don't feed the trolls. -
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Wed, August 5, 2009 - 6:59 AMI appreciate your dilemma.
Thanks for taking time to re-explain it.
I have decided to not speak to a certain person any more. Ther eis NO future in it.
I am tho' bothered by how my friend was stalked in everyday life. Tribe, once over a year ago, one of you said you were working with her to have her come back.. she has not ever returned. Her area of the world in relatively thinly populated.. that stalker if not caught will still be out there.
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Wed, August 5, 2009 - 1:15 PM>Yes, it is the moderators' job to run their tribes in accordance with site policy, just as members should participate on Tribe in accordance with site policy. Moderators can use their own additional rules to run their tribes as well.
Thank you for that statement. This is the first time in multiple forums that I have actually seen this stated flately and absolutely by someone from tribe administration in a very, very long time.
Now, can that statement be added to the MSP so that it's clear? That way, moderators and site users can clearly see that that is part of a moderators responsibility...and that should also be on the CoC page in my opinion. abuse@tribe.net shouldn't be the first resort when a moderator isn't aware of their responsibilities AND tribe.net should make sure that moderators are aware of the responsibilities they are taking on when they become a moderator of a forum here, explicitly...so there is not chance for the confusion trollers to play that angle...
tribehelp, I'm PMing you the rest of the response to your commentary to avoid feeding frenzies. -
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Wed, August 5, 2009 - 3:31 PMThanks, although everyone already agreed to abide by the TOU and CoC when they created their account on Tribe.
There are links to both on the form when you create a tribe, as well.
The commonly understood definition of "moderator" implies responsibility for the forum they "moderate"... doesn't it? Moderated forums are not unique to Tribe, after all.
We can certainly post more signs reminding people of all this, but it seems a bit neurotic, don't you think? We really don't want to create a big-brother police-state site. -
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Wed, August 5, 2009 - 3:55 PMor return to one.
happy with the clarifications and prevailing wind. thx.
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Wed, August 5, 2009 - 5:21 PMyou might wish to send soem info to Steve who just took over aqfter a long tiem with an inactiv eMOD.. Conmscious Relating.. he may have forgoten the code of condust and hwo he can apply it as MOD
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 9:24 AM>We can certainly post more signs reminding people of all this, but it seems a bit neurotic, don't you think? We really don't want to create a big-brother police-state site.
I do not think it is neurotic to explicitly remind folks of their responsibilities in advance and to know that they have acknowledge them the instant they become a moderator. Rather I consider it neurotic to think that reminding them of responsibilities they were not aware of, after the fact, as being more along the line of neurotic.
I have not created a tribe in a long time, that is true. It is also true that folks that assume control of the moderatorship of a forum also do not see that information at all...do they? Yeah, they might actually decide to read the CoC and TOU on their own...but, um, just how many folks have read the TOU and CoC? That should be mandatory for moderators...or at least it should explicitly say so when someone becomes a moderator...no matter how they achieve the dubious honor.
No one has done a poll on how many tribe.net users actually have read their service agreement, actually care to, etc. However, it certainly would be a good idea for tribe.net to insist that moderators and those responsible for moderating have read those two documents and have agreed to them explicitly. It is not the responsibility of users to inform themselves about the conditions under which they use the service...if tribe.net does not insist that they do so. This is the problem with assuming that one's backside is covered legally and one's backside is actually being helped.
Again, I understand the kumbaya philosophy behind the free speech ideologues. You, as tribe.net administration, are responsible however for making it very clear what and how policy will be implemented...legally. If there is an indication that you have intentionally failed to do so, that is failed to take what a reasonable person would consider reasonable to do, you can be held legally liable for all the stuff you claim you are not legally liable in the service agreement. I'm not a lawyer but that would be my interpretation of the situation. Further, by not being explicit, you are increasing, not decreasing the likelihood that an average user will make assumptions based on their experiences on tribe, not based on what the CoC and TOU actually say.
So, while we can discuss intent here, it is practice, compared to what is reasonable, that is the actual deciding factor on how successful any administration and legal representation is.
So, to sum up. There are several ways that a user can become moderator. Not all of those ways require that they acknowledge their responsibility as a representative of tribe.net's stated official policies on how folks agree to conduct themselves here. This creates a blurred and often inaccurate application of the CoC and violations of the TOU. Some peope are aware of these documents and others are not, some folks care about them and about applying them fairly and others do not. But the groups that have actually read the documents are still vague and unclear. Clearly it is even more important that a moderator agree to and accept their responsibility to apply and reasonably interpret the TOU and CoC...if you actually expect moderators to save tribe administration time and hassle.
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Wed, August 5, 2009 - 11:17 PMI think there is an underlying idea here - which is moderators 'own' their tribes, rather than being 'custodians' of the tribe for the benefit of a group. (something we have talked about at length).
One great fault in the architecture of tribe, and which makes it different from the other Internet boards I have had experience with, is the power to 'moderate' is vested into a single person. Other sites allow "administrators' and 'co-moderators", the obvious strength being that the job and commitment of facilitation the smooth running of a tribe does not fall to a single member who we are totally reliant upon to be present to take any action to address problems which may arise...
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 1:17 AMGroup moderation is a good option, I believe. The original devs had already written in support for it, so we can assign moderatorship to multiple people in one tribe, even though the front end doesn't show it. Next release we'll expose that option, definitely! -
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 1:43 AMThat would be way cool :)
It would keep the picture game in the trivia tribe hopping a long.
Thanks for all your efforts..
It probably seems a bit thankless at times..
But I assure you.. it is not.
THANKS for keeping tribe going !!! -
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 9:08 AMAgreed. Thanks for bringing that up. However, there has to be individual responsibility for individual actions. That's also an important aspect as the CoC and TOU are agreement between a single individual and tribe.net. Again, this is why you need to make it explicit that being a moderator means that you are responsible for enforcing the TOU and CoC. -
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 9:12 AM>>this is why you need to make it explicit that being a moderator means that you are responsible for enforcing the TOU and CoC.<<
what do you think that would accomplish?
how would it be enforced?
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 9:28 AMwildapache,
I just wrote about that here...
moderators.tribe.net/thread/...795448bd
As for enforcement, enforcement requirements should be minimized by informing first and being explicit about informing. That's what a reasonable person should do, regarding rules and who is responsible for making sure that they are adhered to. In that sense moderators need to be informed of the rules and understand them much more than individual contributors do here on tribe.net. Right? -
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 9:35 AMi'm not even sure we are on the same planet with this, Tim
- you can't force people to read the TOU, or anything else for that matter
- every tribe is different, so a single set of rules would be unworkable.
- you can't insist that moderators enforce rules that Tribe admin doesn't or won't -
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 11:09 AM>i'm not even sure we are on the same planet with this, Tim
If the planet you are thinking of involves immature emotional backbiting then I hazard a guess that we are, in fact, on that same planet right now. I would like to get off that planet as soon as possible.
And, for the sake of heated debate to your rhetorical questions (you're welcome to ask me things in private PMs if you really want to have an honest discussion about this)
>- you can't force people to read the TOU, or anything else for that matter
I'm asking tribe.net to make a better effort to inform folks of their responsibilities here as moderators every time they become a moderator. No excuses is a better policy than "gee, I read over here that...but that doesn't make sense when one reads the actual CoC...and tribe employee alt xyz told me that...which doesn't seem to gibe with the TOU at all...but it's all about freedom of speech...and they don't have enough time to...so, gee, everything goes and tribe is soooo cool it will survive forever!"
>- every tribe is different, so a single set of rules would be unworkable.
Then you are arguing that illegal behavior on tribe is okay?
>- you can't insist that moderators enforce rules that Tribe admin doesn't or won't
I'm not insisting that moderators enforce "the rules" that Tribe administration doesn't or won't. (Although I have asked the question as to whether or not some or all of the current tribe.net administration cares what the official policies of tribe.net are and whether or not they actually intend to enforce them in a less arbitrary fashion. That's not a topic for this thread though IMO.) No, I'm asking them to do the best to inform moderators of the official policies of tribe so that tribe.net administration will hopefully spend less time having to rein in folks who would have shown better judgement had they known tribe.net's official policies. To do that, tribe.net's official policies need to not be spread over several dynamic forum discussions and clearly communicated at times when folks are given responsibility here on tribe with regard to administration of forums. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Moderator Support Policy
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 11:50 AM>>Then you are arguing that illegal behavior on tribe is okay?<<
oh, come now
i've argued no such thing
is illegal behavior your problem here?
frankly, it's difficult for me to tell.
if it is, i believe Tribe Help already covered that.
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 11:32 PM>>Then you are arguing that illegal behavior on tribe is okay?<<
>oh, come now
>i've argued no such thing
Well, um, then, what rules would you like enforced and which not? Because, basically, I've been arguing that it's better to explicitly point out to moderators, when they become moderators, what the policies are directly, and to not encourage them to wander randomly around and over tribe.net looking for some direction in that regard.
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 10:17 AMexhale
there is life off of tribe
it is likely that many have not read their servic eagreements
it si quite true that mods take their involvement at different levels of seriousness -
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Re: Moderator Support Policy
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 11:34 AMi would encourage you strongly to adhere to your own advice.
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