So, this came up in the WTF thread:
moderators.tribe.net/thread/...4fddb5db
What do folks think about being able to check a "ban user" checkbox when booting a member from a Tribe? This might be something relatively easy to implement on the banning side, but it would probably take a while to whip up the UI to un-ban someone.
Since trolls tend to go out of their way to join Tribes as new members anyway, is this really all that much of a step up above flipping the Tribe to moderated until things calm down?
moderators.tribe.net/thread/...4fddb5db
What do folks think about being able to check a "ban user" checkbox when booting a member from a Tribe? This might be something relatively easy to implement on the banning side, but it would probably take a while to whip up the UI to un-ban someone.
Since trolls tend to go out of their way to join Tribes as new members anyway, is this really all that much of a step up above flipping the Tribe to moderated until things calm down?
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SF Bay Area
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Tue, July 24, 2007 - 9:41 PMit is not so high on my agenda. trolls and bad members can be a problem, but banning is a stop-gap measure hardly worth the coding time it would take to implement.
just my 2c -
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Tue, July 24, 2007 - 10:37 PMKeep it public but if you have problems make it moderated. If someone is determined sometimes it seems there's no stopping them unless the same type of behavior continues with a new alt then just delete the alt too.
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Wed, July 25, 2007 - 8:15 AM"trolls and bad members can be a problem, but banning is a stop-gap measure hardly worth the coding time it would take to implement."
I concur. Those who WOULD be intimidated aren't the ones that are the problem.
Although as a caveat, I should add that I have no such problem with users, so I'm only speaking from experience with other systems. -
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Wed, July 25, 2007 - 11:48 AMlike i said, i haven't had this problem in a while. it doesn't prevent alts, but i have had instances in the past with this. i DID report this to TOU. (don't ask me to look it up, it was a very long time ago). i can understand being moderated or private for smaller more exclusive tribes, but what about larger ones? my largest (and dearest) tribe has almost 500 members. i would like to encourage people to join and contribute without any extraneous barriers. even though activity has been slower on tribe, i have had a steady trickle in of members, and i don't really want to have to check out each and every new member; trying to predict whether they are going to stir up trouble or whether they are going to be "good" for the tribe.
the original question as i understood it was how do we get more people to participate? from a user standpoint, and in my own personal opinion, i would not bother to ask to join most moderated tribes unless they were smaller and involved people i knew. i am thinking here of larger tribes that have a bigger membership, and therefore wider swath of subject matter in the threads. moderation in this case is an unnatural, and in most cases, unnecessary barrier to membership, contribution and discussion.
i see my role as an active moderator to lead, contribute, and keep to the subject matter at hand. this means allowing people to contribute to the threads while feeling like they are somewhat safe to discuss the the tribe's intended subject matter. i would advocate for this as another tool in the toolbox. i see it as no different in practice than the ability to block a user from contacting you personally, but instead it is for a tribe instead of for a profile. i don't really know the implications of how it would/should work in the interface (i am not technically savvy). a bit off the subject, but the thing i like best about tribe (over myspace etc.) is the interface. even with its problems and bugs, it is much more innovative and user friendly than most of the other "social networking systems" out there.
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Tue, July 24, 2007 - 11:45 PMActually, I like that idea. Lots of people are intimidated by having to ask to join a moderated tribe and it would be nice to have some way of keeping troublemakers without making people go through the whole join request process. It would probably also be good for tribes that get too many joins for the mod to reasonably keep up with. I think it might be more useful for keeping out plain old troublemakers rather than more typical trolls though. -
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Wed, July 25, 2007 - 2:54 AMIt's a good idea, I know of a lot of people all having trouble with the same person and they have all had to change their Tribes to Moderated to ensure this person doesn't rejoin their Tribe. The ones who haven't made their Tribes Moderated wake up some mornings to find he is back in their Tribes and are considering going Moderated which isn't ideal.
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Wed, July 25, 2007 - 6:22 AMPeople shouldnt be intimidated. : ) -
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Wed, July 25, 2007 - 6:40 AMQuite right Mr, happy belated birthday by the way :o*
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Wed, July 25, 2007 - 6:41 AMWell, I think we all know that, and heck, they probably know that. But, they're still intimidated and it's something that moderators recognize and can do to make their Tribes more welcoming... -
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Wed, July 25, 2007 - 6:56 AMThanx Sarah. I'm 39 now. Woo hoo!!!
I think maybe new people may need things to be "welcoming" but anyone that's been around for even a short time probably understands what haters and trolls are and why people have tribes in moderated status. If I don't care about the tribes content being off topic or whatever then I'll make it public. Not that I'm so strictly authoritarian but if a tribe is about baseball and someone is always posting like it's a recipe tribe it works my nerves. GONG!!!! Hence, moderated status. : ) Even though most of my tribes are moderated I still let pretty much anyone in. Once in a while if someone just joined and has no friends and pics and is probably the same troll under a new alt I might decline. I will look at their profile. There was this one guy that wanted to join the "Satanists" tribe. His profile said he wanted to spread his hiv for his Dark Lord Satan. I was like "Uh, DECLINE!!!" I think he finally figured out to make a few "friends" and add a couple of pics and got in under a new alt. No big. I will just kick him out if he misbehaves. He has certain views of Satanism that I think are completely assinine. Probably just a matter of time before I give him the boot.
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Cure Worse than Disease
Wed, July 25, 2007 - 8:14 AMI think this is one of those cases where the "cure" is worth than the problem it alleges to solve, since the prevalence of "alts" and the possibility of sock puppets makes it so trivial to bypass, and this is the sort of "barrier" that just brings up the technical hackles of griefers and makes one want to grief you more, out of technical contempt.
A lot of it depends on what your goals on Tribe are. If you are running a high-school clique or anal-warts support group, it makes more sense to have a private tribe. I know that the Reed College group has a moderated "gateway" tribe where you submit your bona fides and are then invited to the "real" tribe.
Is your tribe a private party or a public space? Once you clarify that and where you are on the continuum, the issue of security and bouncers becomes simple. I think Lobicita nailed this one: the silver-bullet, fantasy techno-fix would take a lot of time and would not work against a determined attacker.
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Wed, July 25, 2007 - 7:52 PMPersonally, I like it. Any little bit helps...and if it keeps the more opportunistic trolls out then I'm all for it. You'd be surprised what a small percentage of trolls are really so dedicated as to be willing to alt-flood. And, further, being able to ban with each alt actually tilts the balance of power to the side of the tribe-mod, I think...it takes longer to create an alt than it does to ban one and delete their posting(s), particularly if you're an active moderator.
To argue against it is like arguing against car-door locks just because some people know how to use a slim-jim. Even weak security is better than none at all, provided one understands the potential workarounds and is on their guard. -
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Thu, July 26, 2007 - 12:41 AM"To argue against it is like arguing against car-door locks just because some people know how to use a slim-jim."
Well...
Or like arguing against thousand-dollar door locks on a car with no windows. ;)
Wouldn't that thousand bucks be better spent on the Enya boxed CD collection and a couple of bass shakers in the boot?
Admittedly, tribe can spend its dev money on anything it wants to, but if there's any sort of budget for new dev, there are about eight gajillion things I'd RATHER see coded than something that provides no actual security.
So, sure, if Santa Claus drops bags of money down the chimneys of tribe and they can develop anything they want, then it's no skin off my nose to have this added function, no matter how useless I think it'll be.
And none of that even addresses the high probability that this is usually a Mod wetware issue. -
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Thu, July 26, 2007 - 5:30 AMI have to agree that there are lots of things I'd rather see.
I've been able to control this with moderated/private tribes. You'll always have new troll accounts. -
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Thu, July 26, 2007 - 6:59 AM<<I have to agree that there are lots of things I'd rather see.>>
Me too..... a better search function would be top of the tree....
(Hi by the way - only recently joined - almost on false pretences really cause at the moment I am only moderating a single tribe :)
Personally I like moderated tribes because there is a latent threat of blocking a user who gets out of line.. Mind you, I recently got banned from a tribe for protesting a moderators deletes – these deletes made no sense and they were not even mine ! There was no discussion - just ejection. It was unreasonable - but by the same token it will make me a lot more careful about causing “trouble” in the future.
I think a big thing is if you consider you “own the tribe” or are “custodian of a tribe”. I think moderators should be custodians – but there quite a few moderators who seem to think that they “own a tribe” even when it has many members and hence stakeholders. I think the best way to ban someone is through group censuses or at least asking for the opinion of key posters via pm – it is nice when this happens to me as a member and makes me more likely to see the moderator as more democratic, or at least consultative, rather than autocratic.. I am much more likely to back a democratic and consultative moderator than an autocratic one..
I will shut up now
Cheers
Bloke -
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Thu, July 26, 2007 - 10:13 AM"I think a big thing is if you consider you “own the tribe” or are “custodian of a tribe”."
Yep! 8)
By and large, I serve my tribes -- not the other way 'round. At least that's my attitude.
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Thu, July 26, 2007 - 12:50 PM>>><<I have to agree that there are lots of things I'd rather see.>>
>>>Me too..... a better search function would be top of the tree....
I agree. Permanently blocking booted users from returning to a tribe sounds okay, if it's easy to put in place. But if there is a limit to new or improved features I vote for the above mentioned search feature improvements, and also a cleaning up of unused tribes.
I browse tribes to find ones that are interesting. But to wade through the numerous tribes which have only 1 member or ones that haven't had any post this year takes a lot of time, and gives the impression I think to new users that Tribe is full of useless tribes. Why then join at all? If a tribe hasn't had a post in over a year AND has fewer than 3 members I would like not to see that tribe while browsing tribes.
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Thu, July 26, 2007 - 4:10 PM**sigh**
it wasn't a question of "would rather see" that i was addressing with this idea, but whatever. i don't have any understanding of changing/improving/expanding the interface, but i do know what i would like to see for the toolbox of moderator tools. it is something i, as a moderator would find useful.
i do see myself as a custodian of my tribes, and try to do what is best for the interests of the tribe and its members. that is why i don't want it to be a moderated tribe. that doesn't really solve anything, but it makes the trie less welcoming to people to join and post.
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Thu, July 26, 2007 - 4:30 PMbutter girls said:
>>.but it [moderated tribes] makes the trie less welcoming to people to join and post.
Now, I am wondering how accurate that is. Has anyone actually done any measuring to find out if that is true and how significant this is? -
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Thu, July 26, 2007 - 6:34 PM"Has anyone actually done any measuring to find out if that is true and how significant this is?"
It's anecdotal, but I personally am not too keen on joining tribes that are heavily moderated. This isn't because of the moderation per se, but how it's typically used. Specifically for groups that are primarily social. When I'm on a tech forum that's moderated, I'm cool with that -- we're there for the specs, not for the idjits.
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Thu, July 26, 2007 - 7:54 PMYes, Butter, I drifted off topic there. Back to the question at hand. A setting for blocking users who have been removed from a tribe from rejoining could be a nice addition for some moderators like yourself. I haven't found the necessity for a function like that, myself, but I moderate some fairly tame tribes. And I also moderate as a sort of custodian, so I'd not likely remove a member anyway, unless asked to by others in the tribe. I could see it could come up in some tribes with more controversial subject matter, though, and could be a useful feature. As far as Jenni's comment about it being more difficult to remove the ban on that person later, it could be a permanent ban to that tribe if moderators used it with extreme caution. Then it wouldn't have to be reversed at some later date. I don't think that would hurt the occasionally wrongly banned person too much. If it happened to me by mistake, for instance, I would go on my way and perhaps find a similar, different tribe and if I absolutely loved the old tribe, I could still read the material there, just not be able to post.
About moderated versus unmoderated entry in to tribes, I leave the tribes I moderate open to entry to hopefully encourage shy tribers to join them. As someone who is still joining tribes myself, though, having to ask permission to join a tribe doesn't bother me, I go ahead and ask. It only bothers me if I'm not let in, because I don't know whether it was a decision by that tribe's moderator to not let me in (I can' see any reason why not, as I haven't offended anyone as far as I know), and I then think that the current moderator of the tribe I'd like to enter is not actually checking their messages. I am glad that this particular tribe's moderator responded to my request to join Tribe Moderators within a few days. Thanks, Mod!
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Fri, July 27, 2007 - 5:52 PMChristie wrote: "I browse tribes to find ones that are interesting. But to wade through the numerous tribes which have only 1 member or ones that haven't had any post this year takes a lot of time, and gives the impression I think to new users that Tribe is full of useless tribes. Why then join at all? If a tribe hasn't had a post in over a year AND has fewer than 3 members I would like not to see that tribe while browsing tribes."
What if we decided not to show these tribes while browsing, but they would appear in search results? -
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Fri, July 27, 2007 - 5:56 PMJenni I'm not sure exactly what you mean but it sounds good to me. : )
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Fri, July 27, 2007 - 8:21 PMhmmm, i think the "browse tribes" means to search for key word + tribes in the search engine and then browse through the results... maybe put the number of members in RED and last post date in RED for browse results... -
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Fri, July 27, 2007 - 8:56 PMActually, I mean by browse tribes, click on browse at upper left and scroll down to tribes, then choose a category and all tribes in that category are listed in alphabetical order. Jenni gets what I mean. Yes, that would be greatly appreciated! To browse tribes in their alphabetical lists and only see tribes that have members and posts would be wonderful! The unused tribes can still show up when searching, that's fine with me.
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Mon, July 30, 2007 - 5:43 PM<<< I think a big thing is if you consider you “own the tribe” or are “custodian of a tribe”. I think moderators should be custodians – but there quite a few moderators who seem to think that they “own a tribe” even when it has many members and hence stakeholders. I think the best way to ban someone is through group censuses or at least asking for the opinion of key posters via pm – it is nice when this happens to me as a member and makes me more likely to see the moderator as more democratic, or at least consultative, rather than autocratic.. I am much more likely to back a democratic and consultative moderator than an autocratic one.. >>>
Interesting. Thank you Bloke.
I just left a tribe over my reaction to some words which caused problems. I have spent a lot of time reflecting on my initial response and the actions/words of others afterwards. The moderator stongly disliked that I reported another's words to tribe and took me greatly to task for it while completely ducking the issue of the words which I had objected to in first place.
I still think.. though I may be wrong... that readers on tribe.net may report things to moderator or to tribe.net which are of legitimate concern to them. Might be wrong.. shouldn't abuse this possibility but do have a right to do so..and if they do .. a strong, conscientious moderator will review the issue carefully . These little words which we type become permanent and may be accessed by many anonymous readers way down the line. How a moderator handles /owns/shephards his/her tribe is apparently mostly left to them. Generally seems fair. In this case from my point of view it hasn't happened yet.
I chose to leave the tribe because it wasn't quite right for me. I do read words more analytically than some posters may intend, though I am from an academic background.. their intentions may not have been what they wrote. Just this misunderstanding caused furor distracting from group goal or my desire for different discussions.
Thank you for listening.
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Mon, July 30, 2007 - 6:28 PMOHH Noo.. I just tried to write to the moderator and she apparently has blocked me from sending her PMs.
I do believe that I have a right to report objectionable words on a tribe member's posting to a moderator and to tribe. She blasted me for reporting certain words to tribe and accused me of harming the tribe's reputation with tribe and embarrassing the writer.
She did not even deal with the issue of the words and their potential effect. I have turned this issue over to tribe to review. It is a tribe with an important focus and sensitive issues with an over-protective moderator whom I have greatly respected in man yactions, but this time IN MY OPINION she mishandled an issue.
I left the tribe. I have to let it go. I will welcome tribe.net's comments. I will within a few days forgive and forget the public blasting which appears in that particular thread.
Look forward and move on.. gotta.
Again thanks for listening.
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Mon, July 30, 2007 - 8:27 PMHi cathyq
I know you from EH (or somewhere else) - I cant remember seeing you flame. I think this exposes another thing a good moderator needs to do - discuss and FORGIVE mistakes by posters. I am not saying forgive EVERY TIME but surely at least a second chance is warranted when someone makes a mistake. If they are a troll, alt, disaster - they will make the same mistake soon enough..
Private message me if you need to chat further
Cheers
Bloke
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Thu, August 2, 2007 - 7:33 PMtime passes
the moderator let me back in with a reminder that the others were gentle souls
we are coexisting
one lashed out tat me.. hers is a problem of projecting and I gave a semi-lash (mean though) back..
now we are all moving on -
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Sat, August 4, 2007 - 1:15 PMwell that didn't last.
We got into a major broo-haha. It appears that I am WRONG abotu TOU Cod eof Conduct and flagging existing. I am also stinging when peopel misquote me and then use that misquote to justify anger and then blame me for the feud. AAAGGGHHH while I see the tribe as a valuable resource potentially.... I am also seeing limitations brought forth by the nature of the writers and their difficulties.
thank you for listening. -
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Sun, August 5, 2007 - 8:02 AM<<well that didn't last.>>
Well - that all sounds a bit hard :(
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 8:23 AMWell, I got dropped from the tribe. Strange, though. It's the depression tribe, moderated by Darla.
It was after another member wrote a list of ways to deal with depression and I attached another list to it. That apparently was the final blow. It feel like the tribe ought to be a private tribe as the currently posting members have some serious problems and don't want to hear any other opinions or thoughts. It does however, feel like a tribe of dead energy.. few doign much actively to be healthy adnd a lot of poor me's, so I am looking fo rother tribes with mor eactive support in livign life with action and acceptance that one has responsibility to look for and enact things which shape their lives.
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Sat, July 28, 2007 - 1:42 PM>>><<I have to agree that there are lots of things I'd rather see.>>
agreed, but i still think it has merits.. -
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 6:45 AMOh I'm not saying it isn't worth having, just saying there's other things I'd rather see worked on at this time. -
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Re: Block users from rejoining a Tribe?
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 9:11 PMoh, definitely!
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